Tenant/Landlord Relationships

Zac Ruiz [0:00] All right, guys, all right. So, we're gonna go ahead and get started here. We are trying a couple of different things on the sound. So before we get too much going, thumbs up, everybody can hear us okay? Thumbs down, if it sucks, if it sucks, we won't know how to fix it, so hopefully there's not too many thumbs down. All right, well, thank you guys so much for coming out. We are here. All right, this is a good start. Problems all over the place. You might need to stand back. Or can you plug it in again? Can you plug the USB out and in? All right, so, while we figure out this technology issue at the remote, We'll get started. Anybody here for the first time?

I think I see, like, a lot of familiar faces, not too many. Okay. So, for your benefit, we'll do a really quick recap. This is AVLmeetup. Our goals to bring together the movers and shakers in the actual real estate world together. And we do that through this concept that we call the net profit philosophy, the net profit philosophy. All right, well, we might be going off memory tonight. So a net profitable office, philosophy stands for networking, education, and transactions, and the little joke on that is it's net profits, because nobody cares about the gross profits, right? So networking. You know, obviously, that's kind of what we started the meeting with.

It's the first 30 minutes or so, of all of our meetings, we were We really encourage that. And before we get to the panelists, we also have a section just to do some table topics. And again, it's the same thing. There's a lot of knowledge and experience in the room, and our goal is to try to get everybody to share, talk to everybody, what we say is, like, learning to do good business with good people is good for everybody. And so that's kind of what we try to do, and that's the end side of things.

Unknown [2:02] I'll try to click.

Zac Ruiz [2:05] There it is. Oh, yeah, we're on social media, too. I forgot that. But go for it. Were on education now, Scott.

Unknown [2:12] If you can get it.

Zac Ruiz [2:13] Oh, thanks. will start. Well, yeah, just go to education. We skip over the agenda.

Unknown [2:22] All right.

Zac Ruiz [2:26] All right, we'll continue rolling with education. So, uh, we've been doing this for about 2 years now, and if you look on the next slide is kind of a list of topics that we've gone through, up until this meeting, we were able to fit all of them on one slide, but now we have to chop off the first 5 that we did to make it all fit. And so today, as you guys to see, it's meeting number 21, it's tenant landlord relationships. Next month, we're gonna be fully focused on short-term rentals. And so, if that's what you're interested in. Hope to see you next month. And, of course, the focus this month is on managing that relationship with your landlord or your tenant.

Next slide, if you will, please, Scott. The cool thing, one thing that we've always been tracking, as you all know, we do a lot of data driven approaches here, is the number of education hours, and then a little bit on the networking side is the amount of people we've had. So over the last, you know, 21 meetings or so. We've had over 2,500 hours of education. The way we measure that is, if you signed in, and you, you know, for tonight, that would count us two hours of education. So all of those numbers is based off of people who signed in, people don't sign in, we're not able to track it. And then, again, 876 people. That's how we got to that number. We usually do panels of three people.

which is how we got to 52 industry experts who've been on, who've been able to come to our stage to talk with us. All right, transactions. Oh, thank you. So, as you guys see, that soundboard over there is feeling very lonely. And if anybody is very good at managing sound, we could use all the help in the world, as you can say, technology in this type of stuff is not exactly our strong suit. So if you're able to, we would really appreciate your help, if you're interested, just let us know, let me, or Ray Ray know. This slideshow thing just totally messed things up. I forgot to introduce Ray Ray. This is terrible.

So, as you guys know, Zach and I usually co-host this exact side of the country's traveling. He'll get his classic Ruiz Report, or he's gonna do it on video anyways, but tonight, Ray Ray is our co host. If you guys can, please give her a warm welcome. Big applause.

Speaker 2 [4:44] All right, so speaking of Ray, right? That's me again as well. So if you do know anything about sound or sound expert, we would genuinely appreciate your help with these. It just creates a better experience for everyone. So come see me. Also, if you're interested in volunteering. We have a variety of things that we need volunteers for. So in fact, let's give our volunteers a round of applause for tonight. Yes. So it's because of the volunteers at events like this, and at the summit that we're able to put on these events. So big thank you from my heart, as I ask all of you to volunteer, so thank you so much for the volunteering that you've done so far.

Now, we stand for the net profit philosophy, right? So we covered a little bit of the networking, right? That's what we get to do, and we'll have a couple more conversation topics for that. Rodrigo covered the education perspective. So I'm going to just shine a little light into the transactions, right? So everything we do is around those three things. So we want to help you get transactions. So whatever you are in terms of industry related to real estate or not, we want to help you get transactions. So if anyone can raise their hand if they've met someone here, that they were able to do a transaction with, or met a great partner, that they foresee themselves doing a transaction with.

Awesome, awesome. This is exciting. So this is why we do what we do. So yes, education, but in all reality, we're here to do business with each other. And we're excited to offer something unique to the Asheville area, and so honored that you guys chose to spend your time with us. So that is the transaction aspect of it. So our community is strong. So, no, not every hand went up, but we're hoping that even after tonight, and the next one, even more hands go up. So we're very excited to know that, I mean, even Parker and I and a couple people here have been able to do more transactions solely because you showed up.

And one of our longtime members, Alexia, always says, your one conversation away, right, from saving yourselves either hours of research and work, or saving yourselves, trying to find someone to do that business with, because you just met them, right? So 5 minutes can equal a lot longer in terms of results and productivity. So. All right, next is someone a long time ago once told me, and I'm so glad that the business partners up here believe in that. So feedback is a gift. We want to do phenomenal things for y'all. So we have a couple ways you can give us feedback.

One, of course, you can scan the QR code on your table and go ahead and give us feedback that way, or if you're a little old-fashioned like myself. We have some paper pens and a fish bowl. So whether it's feedback on us, the topics in general, or if you have an idea or a topic you'd like to see us present on or like to see a panel on, please stop by on your way out and go ahead and put that idea and we would love to review them.

Zac Ruiz [7:24] So this is a prerecorded video. We have a Bluetooth speaker. We're going to try to put the mic next to it. And hopefully everybody hears really, really well, all this important information, we will send the video with a follow-up email. So if it comes through a little choppy, we'll make sure you get the actual original so you can watch it on your own, it's about just around 10 minutes. So, Scott, let's see what happens. What's going on, everyone. Zach, I'm coming, not live, but direct from Valencia, Spain. So we're going to do an abridged version of the Ruiz Report just to make sure that you guys get the data because things are happening.

The market is shifting, and I think it's really, really important that we stay on top of this. Today's topic is basically gonna be around supply and demand and pricing. So with that, we'll get right to it. I am gonna share my screen. Our friend Zoom lets us do that.

Unknown [8:17] And here we go.

Zac Ruiz [8:19] We are going to be going over Buncombe County's August report. So this is the 42nd month we've been covering these numbers, and it's been rocket ship up until the right ever since we started, and now we're trying to see some, or we're starting to see some differences. So, if you don't already know, my name is Zachary. I run the Ruiz Report and a sister company called REMC.co, and basically I'm kind of known as the keeper of the data is in the area, and I've been watching this, as I said, for 42 months in a row now. Uh, the Ruiz Report has a mission that is twofold.

One is to equip realtors with these data driven market insights through our 10 slide report, and that's what we're going to go over. And importantly, what's happening right now is to empower them with industry leading training to become their client's local economist of choice. So every real estate professional, whether you're an investor or an agent should know the market, and this is one of the best tools to get that done. So we're going to start with the graphs today, because it tells the story. It's the most fun part, right? Another way to say that is it's the pretty shapes and colors. If your eyes glaze over every time you see stuff like this, don't worry, I got you, all right?

This is how to read the graph. So every graph is gonna follow the exact same pattern. On the far right, you're gonna see the report month, and in this case, it's August. To the left, you'll see another box, and that's the report month last year. So we'll get our year over year. Those numbers will also be called out. And then I add in 2 months to give a seasonality. So it's 15 months. So what was happening this time last year coming into the report? Let me just make sure everything's going well here. Okay. So every graph follows this pattern. So let's go over volume and activity, and all this slide is basically saying is how much real estate is being done.

If you were gonna add in all the listings that were for sale at any given time during the month, which is your red bar, to the homes that sold, closed, right? And those that went under contract in the month, well, excluding the those that withdrawn and expires, which is kind of marginal considering the whole size of a county, this is all of the real estate that happens during the month. And all we're looking here is the size of the bar. And we can see that year over year, the bar has gone down. We see that we have that seasonal dip in the winter months, but we have not come back to the same levels as last year, and we're gonna kind of talk about that.

So on the right, we have our talking points that essentially say the last one will read overall volume was up one% from last month, but down 13% from this month last year. This is where this is kind of kind of be the driving force in today's talk. This is the listing and pending charts. So we're just gonna we're gonna read it, right? So new listings increase 10% from last month. We're gonna talk about that. But they were down 8% from last August. 6% less homes went under contract this month, month every month, and Bunkum had less homes going under contract than this month, last year down 32%. Right? And homegoing under contract is people thinking it's a good idea to buy at this price, right?

That's what that says. So the pro tip. Keeping an eye on the difference between homes added to the market, new listings, and those taken off by going under contract is the best way to gauge supply and demand. So what do I mean by that? This story tells this supply and demand, or the slide tells this the blind demand story. When the red bar, which is our new listings, is above the green line, and that green line represents what went under contract, then we've added more. We added more. But when it's below, we took more off. We did not replenish supply, and that's been keeping supply down for some time now. But we've been consistently adding supply lately.

So if we go back to this one's chart, we can see March, April, May, June, July, and now August, we have added, we have replenished homes. Interesting. Right? And we're going to talk about why I think that's so interesting. And here's a refrain that you're going to hear a couple times today. Supply and demand directly affects pricing. All right, so let's look at our home slide. Our home prices slide. The red bar is the average price. So if you add them all up and divide by how many sold you get an average. And the green bar is the median sales price. So if you line them all up from the cheapest home to the most expensive home, what's right there in the middle, the median price.

That's what that is, right? So we have an increase year over year. And even though, you know, everyone's talking about prices decreasing, list prices certainly are, people are having to adjust their original asking price. But if we do a trend line on these two graphs, we can see that even though it's not stellar rocket ship as it's been, we are still increasing up into the right. So we are 11% higher compared to last August, that's the year over year average. Excuse me. So home prices are still increasing. And that's curious. A lot of people are wondering why, right? This is true in Bunkum. true in a lot of areas, but they're wondering why. Right? So what about interest rates?

Supply and demand, that's great, but these homes are more expensive. So, looking at interest rates, and this is the exact same period as the graph previously, this is from June until August this month. You can see that interest rates have increased tremendously, tremendously, and everybody is feeling that, right? So if we look at a mortgage calculator, of this time last year, the interest rates were having around 5%, that would have been a $2,800 payment for our median home price, right, of 475. But if we do a 7% interest, which is where it's hovering right now, it's $3,400, right? And so what does that mean? The year over year mortgage payments of 289 versus 3400 is a 21% increase.

So think about that. Don't worry about the sticker price of the home. It costs 21% more to own the median home. That's some, that's not nothing. Right? So mortgage payments, think about that. These are after tax dollars. This is money after you've already spent taxes, state taxes and federal taxes, right? But did wages go up 21%? So let's look at it. Well, over the same period, more or less, right? Because these are lagging metrics, they don't have the most recent data, the most recent data is from some point in 2021. Well, it looks like real median household income has been going down. And given that inflation is not under control. We know that that has continued to be the case.

So the payments are up, the prices are up, and income is at least stagnant or down. Well, real income, which is, you know, taking into account inflation is down. So, the year over year, median home price, in August was uh, last August was 450, This year is 470, so that's a 4% increase. We'll say it again. Supply and demand directly affects pricing. It is the king, right? Demand exceeds supply in our area. So some food for thought. Supply is limited, as we know. Demand exceeds supply at least in our area that is very, very, very true. Real wages have been declining, so people have less disposable income and money to spend on all this stuff. And yet, payments continue to rise.

This is a very interesting, you know, concoction here. So let's look at this. That same median price home at a 3.5% interest rate, which most people who are in that window of, I should sell, my home right about now, are 3.5% or less. Their monthly payment is $2,400 or less. Right? So that means that the monthly payment now would be $1,000 more for a home that is probably comparable, and, as we know, more expensive these days. Right? Do you think that these homeowners will want to sell their homes to trade somewhat equally, or maybe even down, to pay more money? I don't think so. So how do you think that will affect the supply of homes?

So back to the curious thing that we've been adding more homes. It's kind of not necessarily because more people are listing their homes as we saw that bar was a little bit lower than previously. People weren't trying to cash in on the equity, so it's the listing, right? Was higher month every month, but lower year every year. And so what we're seeing is less people are being able to buy them. So the supply and demand thing is shifting more on the demand side because I don't know that the supply side is going to increase, right? especially not in this area. So, say it again. Supply and demand directly, directly affects pricing. Moving on. We'll talk about days on market.

It is taking a little bit longer to sell the home. That's what this graph is telling us. We can see that it's going up into the right, but again, the median, the median days on market, which is you line all the homes that sold in the 1st day, until the ones that took 100s of days, 50% of homes across all price ranges sold in 10 days or less. So if you have a listing, think about that. And if you're trying to buy a home and you see that it's stagnant without a price reduction, then you may want to consider putting a below ask offer. Finally, contractor closer. Now, finally, before last one, contract to close.

This is largely out of your control, but it's what happens after you go under contract, and how long does it take to close? Talk to your lending, talk to your loan originators, your lenders, and your closing attorneys, they'll have a better answer. But across all price ranges in Buncombe County in August, it took about 47 days. Finally, we have contracted cash. Sellers got paid an average of 10 days faster after listening to their homes according to August sales data, which was about as fast as August 22. Again, that median, 50, or 50% of homes, uh, whoa. So they're doing some work while I'm here. Our closing in 53 days or less. All right?

So if you have your copy of the Ruiz Report, and if you don't go to Ruiz Report.com, you can see this by price ranges. So you'll get your new listings, your under contracts, your percentages, your pending ratios, all of that broken down instead of the macro market, which is what we just did, all of Buncombe County. You can get it for the micro market. It's your price range. And with that, I will give it back to Ray Ray and Rodrigo, and I hope you guys are having a great one. I really wish that I could be at the landlord tenant one as a landlord myself. It going to be incredible information. So, uh, enjoy and I'll see you when I get back. Thanks.

All right, am I the only one pleasantly surprised that actually worked relatively well? I was, uh, whew. Can't get the clicker to work. We got that to work. That's incredible. All right. Try two for the clicker?

Unknown [18:23] Nope. All right.

Zac Ruiz [18:25] Whoops, too many clicks. All right, so we're gonna do table topics here. You can just leave it. I have it here on the phone. I don't remember all my questions. All right, so we are gonna do two questions. We're gonna do five minutes for each question. And again, this is just ideas to talk at your table, or at the group in front of you, about this, and then we'll bring up the panelist after us. So we'll do, well, actually, based on time, we'll do three minutes for each question. So question number one is share a story. Maybe it's a funny one. hopefully, when there's a communication breakdown between yourself, and a tenant, or yourself, and a landlord, whatever stage of life.

that you might be in. Three minutes go, and then we'll do question number two, discuss.

Speaker 2 [19:21] So three minutes, just a quick one before we introduce the panel. So trust plays a critical role in a healthy tenant and landlord relationship. What steps do you think can be taken by a landlord to build trust with a tenant? All right, three minutes. What steps can you take to build trust?

Zac Ruiz [19:50] Did anybody have a good funny story or a good way to build trust that they want to share in front of everybody? Last call to share your wisdom with the crowd. Is it short, though? Because that's the problem with stories. All right, right here, go for it. You got excited. Yeah, absolutely. Clear expectations. All right, Alexi, hit the slide. All right, so, as you guys can see, we have a mystery guest here tonight, that's not so mystery. Originally, we're gonna have Kenny Hunt join us. He had a last-minute emergency, and thankfully, he had Mr. Mandy join us here and kind of arrange that. So, thank you, and thank you for the rest of our panelists. I'm not gonna try to introduce yourselves.

So I'll let you guys go, maybe quick, 30, 60 seconds, who you are, what your area focuses, and kind of what your expertise on the panel is for this evening. And we can go left to right, starting on my left.

Benjamin Many [21:06] Hey, everybody. I'm Ben Manny. I'm an attorney at Stone and Christie. It's about what I look like, I guess. I have done many, many landlord tenant cases. I still do some. I do a lot of estate administration these days. I do some real estate work and I do miscellaneous civil litigation that is not family law. I've been in Asheville for 13 years, something like that. My wife is from here. Anyway, that's about it.

Joe Knight [21:44] Hello, hello. My name is Joe Knight. I am the magistrate assigned to be the judge in small claims. If you have been evicted in Buncombe County in the last 16 years, there is a 99 percentile that it was done by me. Of those, of those, of those judgments or evictions, there is a procedure, my guess is, is that, uh, of those evictions, the lockouts might be five, 7%. Things happen between the judgment and the potential lockout. Went to law school, central law school back in, graduated in 2000, practice law, and then I grew up and became a magistrate.

David Bartholomew [22:31] Good evening, everyone. My name is David Bartholomew, and I'm the program director for homelessness prevention at Pisgah Legal Services. So I regularly represent tenants in front of Judge Knight sometimes against Benjamin Manny. I'm from Waynesville, North Carolina, went to the University of Georgia school law, and moved back to Asheville in 2018. And excited to be here this evening.

Zac Ruiz [22:53] All right, thank you guys. We'll start opposite end this time for the 1st question is, what's the worst legal advice you've heard somebody receive or heard about somebody receiving for tenant landlord law?

David Bartholomew [23:09] Well, that's, you know, I don't know if I can actually say the absolute worst. Certainly in family law. There's sometimes there's advice to keep fighting when there's a good offer on the table. And a lot of the worst advice I see is rejecting a settlement offer proposal that really is the best outcome that you can get through the court system. And so I would just say the worst advice is that you don't need legal advice to handle these cases because most of my wins are when people just don't understand the process and they don't understand the timelines. And even though, because I don't represent them, you know, they don't really, they don't really trust what I'm saying.

And they end up with a way worse still. So I see that quite often in this in landlord tenant law.

Zac Ruiz [24:00] How about you? How about yourselves tonight?

Joe Knight [24:02] And since I'm no longer a practicing attorney, I want to make it real clear, anything that I say is not advice. It is only information for your edification, take with it what you want to do with it, it's your business.

Zac Ruiz [24:15] Well, we'll go and apply that standard for everybody speaking on the stage, yes.

Joe Knight [24:19] The worst legal advice is, I looked it up on the internet. Or... the deputy said, or... I heard, I was watching Judge Judy, and there was an eviction case. Good legal advice comes from a knowledgeable person in the field that does the work. The 2nd tier of reliable information is from a government agency like the small claims house, we have our own self-help desk, that I wrote all the material. or the North Carolina School of Government, or HUD, if you're having to deal with section eight.

Benjamin Many [25:14] Same question, yes, sir. Yeah, I think of the list of questions that was sent to us. This is definitely what we could probably spend the most time on, and I agree wholeheartedly with what my friends up here have said. You know, Elise is a highly regulated contract. And people don't realize that just because you put it in your lease doesn't mean that's the way it's going to go. The government of North Carolina has a very strong interest in making sure that the workforce has safe, plentiful housing at a decent price. And so these contracts are governed by law. You can't just put whatever you want in there.

And I've had, and I'm sure Joe has seen and David has had situations where people put these bonkers things in their contract. And I think just because somebody signed it that it's going to work out for them. That's just not the case. I guess to piggyback on what these guys said, the internet's not your friend with this. You know, just because you heard your friend who's a landlord was dealing with a tenant and X, Y, and Z worked out, it doesn't mean it's going to work out in your situation. I've probably handled, I don't know, over a 1000 landlord tenant cases. And although there's some similarities, They're all their own thing.

And, you know, because if you're a tenant, well, the landlord has to give you X, Y, Z amount of notice, well, maybe they don't. If you're a landlord, well, you know, here's the rule. is not necessarily the case. So, um, I'm a big believer in when it comes to if you're the landlord making sure you take care of things on the front end, um, so that there aren't any problems on the back end, um, and you're not going to probably be able to do that by yourself.

Zac Ruiz [27:07] All right. No internet, no TV, no friends. It's good summary there. Do you, uh, think, I mean, obviously, the laws and the rules are always changing, but are there any current regulations or rules that you think are commonly overlooked from either attendance side or landlord side, that cause... either tension or cause, you know, points of frustration between both parties? Or is it just refer to your lease? Anybody who wants to go can go.

Joe Knight [27:46] From my perspective, as the judge who's making the decisions, I think that the thing that is overlooked by the landlords and the tenants and the tenants at least have an excuse is in chapter 42, there is a list of things that landlords are responsible to do, and you cannot contract around them. There is also a list in chapter 42 of the things that every tenet is required or expected to do. And that is often overlooked. It is not overlooked by my court. A landlord can get into trouble very fast. Or a tenant can get into trouble very fast by not knowing that list.

Zac Ruiz [28:25] Sorry, to clarify, is that General Statue 42 or chapter 42?

Joe Knight [28:29] Chapter 4 in chapter 4? Chapter 42 dash one dot dot dot. There is another list, and act that the landlords and tenants are woefully undereducated in, and often comes back to bite them, depending on the facts and circumstances, which is the tenant security deposit act. It has to be known, it has to be clear, and you need, if you're not clear about it, you need to reread it. One of the most recent changes is a change from 30 days for a final accounting from the landlord to 30 days for an interim accounting in 60 days for the final accounting.

That was a gift to the landlords by the legislature so that you would have a better idea of how much the repairs are going to be and the wear and tear is going to be to get the unit ready for the next tenant. So there are a list that tell you what you can do and cannot do, and there's a list for the tenant about how clean they need to maintain the unit. It really is worth forcing yourself to read the law.

Speaker 2 [29:46] You guys want to add on to that?

David Bartholomew [29:48] Yeah, I do think there's a lack of awareness of what you can't contract around. You know, judges talking about certain things that people think just because it's in the least that's covered, but because it's a special situation, right? You're not, it is a contract, but you're someone's living there, right? And so they have extra processes and there's extra protections that the court allows. And so when there's a contract breach, you know, typically the remedies are whatever you want to put in the contract, but it's not the case in these kinds of cases. And so it's really important to know what you can and can't contract around what can be in the least.

And what chapter 42 is going to require regardless of what you have in your written agreement.

Unknown [30:29] Thank you.

Zac Ruiz [30:30] Bet anything, Todd? Nothing further. Perfect. Going back to this chapter 42, or leases in general. Do you find that there is a common point of contention, or 90% of, you know, times you see somebody in your courtroom. It's because of X, Y, Z, uh, or that you represent somebody one way or the other, uh, any common threads that you guys have found in your career so far?

Benjamin Many [30:57] Yeah, and I think everybody in this room can guess what that is. What is it?

Unknown [31:04] Thank you.

Benjamin Many [31:05] Failure to pay, or failure if you're on the tenant side, failure to fix. So, I mean, it's not rocket scientists, and I don't think you need an attorney to say, well, here's the common points of contention. You know, if tenant doesn't pay, if landlord doesn't fix, you're going to have a problem.

Unknown [31:24] Anything, Tad?

Joe Knight [31:26] I would say that taking contentious to the more emotional side, the land, if it's in the lease, like it is with the AANC lease, and the North Carolina realtor lease, the realtor, unless y'all have edited your leases, my landlord can come knock on my door anytime of the day or night, and come do an inspection. He can come at 2 o'clock, he can come at 3 o'clock. He does not have to give notice. He does not have to have my permission. That is really driven by the lease. And one of the things that mom and pop and older leases often leave out is whether or not the landlord has the right to enter the apartment or the residence, which is why the general statutes.

They wrote in that in case of these enumerated emergencies, a landlord or a manager can make sure that things get maintained. Obviously, water is evil and electricity is dangerous. And together, they are even more dangerous.

Zac Ruiz [32:36] Water is evil. Man. Said water is evil.

David Bartholomew [32:42] Yeah, I think they pretty much covered it. I will note, you know, in the presentation before, we were seeing the increase in housing prices and the increase in mortgage rates and how, you know, expensive it is to live here. And so that's correlated with the failure to pay evictions. And also with holdover, right? Where you can charge more. And so the lease that you signed before may not be the best contract anymore. And so deciding to just move on. So we are seeing, you know, throughout the state, if not just not in Buncombe County, you know, increases in those numbers, and that's because I think that when they talk about, you know, the wages not rising 21%, but the mortgage rates are.

I mean, that's going to end up with more people potentially facing the evictions.

Zac Ruiz [33:31] I'm gonna move to topics of pets and DSAs. And, um, Feels to me, personally, at least, it's an increasingly blurry line, and it's kind of like, close your eyes and hope for the best and see what happens. I was hoping that maybe between the 3 of you all, or one of you guys can add some clarity from maybe a landlord's perspective on how to navigate that without getting in trouble, but also protecting your property and making sure that, you know, you have a reasonable expectation as far as what an ESA can be or look like. We're pets in general.

Benjamin Many [34:05] Well, I wish you all the best of luck. I mean, as in all things, I think trying to be reasonable is your best bet. And, you know, lawyers, we like to kick around, well, what if they have an emotional support elephant, were they supposed to let that? I don't know the answer to that, that's not going to happen. It's going to be a cat, okay? It's going to be a cat. And, you know, I would say be reasonable, do the best you can do. This is a moving target for everybody, okay? And you're not going to get the kind of clarity that you want here in us talk. I'm sure, you know, give us 3 different situations and the 3 of us will come up with 3 different answers on what's reasonable or not.

I know how you feel about dogs. Yeah, okay. I mean, but I mean, that's the thing is, you know, any judge or jury you're in front of, or whatever the case may be, they're going to have different feelings about this kind of thing, and it is a moving target. The standard is often reasonableness, be reasonable with your tenants, if you are a tenant. Be reasonable with your landlord and expect that if your animal damages something, you're going to have to pay for it.

But as far as when to approve and not to approve, I'd err on the side of approving because I sure wouldn't want to wind up as one of those groundbreaking cases that law students study, you know, where they remember your name forever, um, as the 1st one that refused an emotional support elephant, and it goes to the Supreme Court and all of a sudden, everybody remembers, your name associated with that elephant. So I would say, do the best you can do, talk to a lawyer, they're not going to be, I'll give you a clear answer on what you should do. Um, But yes, it's a moving target. It's going to continue to develop. We'll continue to see more case law on it. Um, and Godspeed.

Zac Ruiz [36:02] Do you guys have anything to add? I'd love to hear from a tenant's perspective a little bit on that.

David Bartholomew [36:07] I mean, I think he covered it. I mean, there certainly are federal protections, especially if you're in subsidized housing or federally funded or state local funded housing. And certainly the Fair Housing Act, American Disability Act, 88, like there are protections. There has to be paperwork. Certainly service animals. It's you're going to have to make an accommodation. And that's only miniature horses and dogs. And then with ESAs, you're gonna need a letter from a doctor, like an emotional support animal letter, so some documentation can be required. But I, you know, I do think, uh, we could say it depends to every single one of these questions, and lawyers love to do that, right?

It depends on the specifics and what can you do? But I think in this kind of case, it is, well, what are your options and those 2 people are best position to try to figure out something that can accommodate the situation. If you really don't want the emotional support animal, well, can you buy them out? Like, can you figure this out, you know, or can you come up with a way to make to protect your unit, um, and allow it. I think. Yeah, if it gets litigated, it's going to be messy and we don't know. It really will depend on how you handle the situation and what exactly the disability is, all the facts of the situation will really matter.

Speaker 2 [37:31] Any feelings over there?

Joe Knight [37:34] No. With regard to animals that are trained to deal with disabilities, there is no choice about whether or not, as a landlord, you have to let that end. I'm not talking about emotional support animals or pets. All pets are emotional support animals. I am hoping that the North Carolina legislature, because I know the Congress is not going to do anything, at some point, will make some definitions and law about the differences between some sort of certification for emotional support animals and help, you said it on the other, the service animals. And so it is gray, there is no gray between those 2 status of animals, though.

So this is one of those points where you need to do research or you need to go to the government, the American Disabilities Act and HUD and read what the government defines because it is not clear that you have to accept all emotional support animals under every circumstance. But you've got to know what the rules are, and then you have to make your own decision. There are certain types of breeds that insurance companies disallow. I don't know that that's every insurance company. I don't know if there are choices, but this is an area where it really behooves you. Maybe you should have a program with an expert about the difference between those categories of animals.

Zac Ruiz [39:28] All right, well, let's do an easier topic like security deposits. So I personally have always been from the belief that I don't like taking security deposits, because it feels like it's just another reason to fight about something, where it creates more problems than it solves. And I was wondering if you guys would agree with that statement, or if you think it's been something that solves more problems than not. Whoever wants to start.

Joe Knight [39:54] I think it offsets the cost of turning over a residence.

Benjamin Many [40:00] Yeah, take a security deposit. So what is a security deposit? Well, 1st of all, it's the tenants, even though you're holding it in a trust account, right, that you've alerted them where it is within 30 days? So, It's not your money. However, what is it? Well, the General Assembly has allowed a landlord to collect without getting a judgment in court on the security deposit, okay? It is for security. It is not yours. However, definitely take it. Because a lot of times, let's say that your tenant doesn't pay rent for a month or your tenant wrecks your property. Well, you might not be able to ever find them again to collect on a money judgment against them.

So it is the only assurance that you have, all right? that you're going to recoup some of those damages. So absolutely take it. Now, you've had some problems with your security deposit issues in the past? Not really, because we don't have security deposits? Okay.

Unknown [41:08] Yet.

Zac Ruiz [41:08] I just like, a lot of stories stem from people fighting about my security deposit was a thousand. You only gave me back 200. We're gonna fight about it. It just seems like, well, before I was attorney, you know.

Benjamin Many [41:21] And granted, I mean, I don't know, it was a while ago, but I mean, I didn't ever think I would ever get a penny back. You know, and that was just the general way I thought. And obviously that's very incorrect. And, you know, there can be a fight about it, but at the same time, I think every tenant expects to pay a reasonable security deposit, all right? And the law defines how much you can charge. The law defines what you can use it for. And as long as you follow the law, you're gonna be okay. But, you know, I do think that sometimes landlords just assume that they get to keep it no matter what. And then, yeah, you're probably going to get sued.

Zac Ruiz [41:57] Cool. Thank you. Anything, Todd? Dude. All right. So, um, Are there any local laws or state laws or anything like that that you guys are looking at closely that's going to change the way you look at the tenant landlord relationship or any least provisions that you're going to want to see different? Or is it nothing's coming down the pipeline and kind of go about business that's normal? Maybe it was the start of something more.

Benjamin Many [42:28] I'll admit, I don't follow the legislature's docket as well as I used to on this kind of stuff. So I don't know what they have in the works right now for anything like that. David would probably be the best position.

David Bartholomew [42:42] I mean, I'd never want to predict what it's coming out of Raleigh. That's a tough game to play. You know, I think, certainly we saw the importance of rental assistance. It's running out in many places, but I think it prevented a lot of evictions. We saw the numbers drop. And a lot of landlords got paid in that situation. So, you know, whether it's a choice we want to make is a society, I think that there's good points on both sides, but we know we can reduce the number of evictions and all the transactional costs that come with them because we have hard data now at the eviction rates throughout the country while there was available rental assistance. As far as things that I would like to see.

I mean, right now, you know, North Carolina doesn't really have keep eviction records. And so, um, you know, property managers, uh, use background checks that just check for complaints and, um, you know, band can file an eviction against me tonight, don't. But we don't have a landlord tenant relationship, but it could show up in searches. And so I think a lot of states have records and laws to restrict, you know, restrict how property managers can use them. And I see, you know, somebody who's had an eviction 5 or 6 years ago totally in a different situation now working, able to afford rent. You know, I want to make sure they can access the difficult housing situation.

And, um, so I would like to see, I think there could be bipartisan support for that. I think it would be helpful for landlords to actually know, you know, what's out there when they look for a background check and not be relying on some data that's not really robust or significant.

Joe Knight [44:21] My 1st thought on your question sort of came to mind after when Ben was talking, or maybe it was David, I don't know, is when you're a landlord, and you're looking to buy a rental property, the North Carolina General Statutes, whichever local ordinances you're also under Asheville, Black Mountain, Buncombe County, those ordinances by the general statutes, have the enforcement power of general statutes. So it's piece of information. to keep in mind. There was some other local laws and regulations. There was something else that flittered through my mind, but that really was the main one. And so, in Asheville.

For example, if you have a basement apartment, the window can only be, the window has to be a minimum size, and it has to be a minimum distance from the floor.

Benjamin Many [45:31] Thanks to the things to look into. Ben? Well, so I think the takeaway is, is that, uh, if you are in one spot. All you might have is the general statutes of North Carolina that govern what habitable means for a premises. If you are in Buncombe County, it might mean another thing. If you were in Asheville, it might mean another thing, okay? And that's just the way it's gonna be. And so it can be confusing. I don't know if that's a good thing or a bad thing. Some, you know, if you have a, if you have an ordinance, well, you have to fund to enforce the ordinance. Some places aren't going to do that.

I worked in Rutherford County years ago, and the person doing inspections was a police officer who had no training whatsoever to do minimum housing inspections. So your mileage will vary on that.

Unknown [46:25] Is there anything?

Benjamin Many [46:28] I think that was pretty good. Yeah.

Joe Knight [46:32] It can be pretty serious. The ordinances in Asheville, and you can find these in Munico.com, M-U-N-I-C-O-D-E.com, is an excellent resource. And if you come up to get some handouts from the self-help desk, then you won't have to remember or write that down.

Zac Ruiz [46:58] Is there a widely held misconception about evictions that isn't true, or what's the one piece of advice that you would give a client if you're about to file an eviction and go through that process?

Joe Knight [47:13] The main misconception is did the court evicts people. The court does not evict people. The court authorizes the sheriff's department to do the lockout, which is the eviction. There's a lot of time in there. And what David was talking about earlier, it would be nice if there was a distinction in the public record about the difference between the judgment and whether or not there was ever a lockout that was necessary for the purposes of doing a background check, for instance. I really think the percentage of lockouts is very small. There's 10 days to appeal. There's, depending on the county that you live in. It's going to be at least 7 to 20 days before there's a lockout.

And it could be longer. And so it also depends on when the landlord comes and files for the writ of possession, which sets that next stage, um, sets the next set of uh, dominoes in effect. And so, for example, after the 10 days for appeal has passed, you can file for the root of possession on that next day, but you do not have to. You don't lose the ability to file the writ of possession. And there's not a time limit. Again there's laws about what has to take place. But if you file the writ of possession within 29 days, then that's fine.

If you wait a month, then you have to sign an affidavit that you haven't renegotiated the contract or accepted rent for the current time period, current month. That really is a clerk thing, and I really try to stay out of their offices. But there really is a huge difference between an eviction, a judgment of eviction and the eviction itself.

Zac Ruiz [49:17] David or Ben? Misconception, around evictions, or one piece of advice you would give a client before going down the route of an evict...

Benjamin Many [49:31] Well, one thing that I feel like I hear a lot, depending on who you're talking to, if you're talking to the tenant, they're going to say, the landlord has all the rights. And if you're talking to the landlord, oh, the tenant has all the rights, you know, I think when I'm working with a landlord, you know, you've got to manage your expectations, um, about the process and how quick it's going to be, it may be a bad business decision to actually evict your tenant. It may be a good business decision. But you need to think about it in those terms a lot of times. Not that there's not a human element to it because of course there is. But be reasonable. Uh, do the best you can.

You know, people expect that they're going to go in front of Judge Knight and that, you know, he is going to bang a gavel and say, you win and you lose and you're a terrible person and you're a good person, it's not like that. at all for those of you who've been in there. It's not fun. Um, you know, if you can work things out. I've found over the years, it always, not always. Most of the time winds up better if you can figure out a way to get on the same page about where you are.

Zac Ruiz [50:49] David, do you have anything to chime in on that?

David Bartholomew [50:52] No, I mean, I think that's right. I do think in some, you know, I think this group probably all knows, but there are some people who don't even understand you have to go to court and follow chapter 42. I think it's really important to know that it's very illegal and we will sue you if you just lock somebody out or cut the power off or something like that. You know, because it's somebody's home, there's additional protections and the court process is one of those.

Zac Ruiz [51:19] All right, awesome. Audience questions, guys. So if you have a question, we'll start right in the back, then, we're going to repeat your question, just say it as loud as we can. We'll repeat it, make sure everybody hears it as well, and then we'll give you guys an opportunity to answer. So the question was, what's the benefit of doing cash for keys versus going through the whole eviction process?

Joe Knight [51:42] I know of one manager, owner who does it that way. He has success with it most of the time. I would not, that's, again, information. He's successful for what, however, and however he does it, I don't know, I've never been there when that conversation happens. But it's not just cash for keys. I do know that. It's multiple months of rent. that the landlord gives that his tenets in the past so that they avoid the process. It's not free.

Benjamin Many [52:21] I'm not free either. And so I think you have to make a business decision about whether it's worth it or not to go through the process and the time or can you pay somebody off, get them out, get another tenant in there?

David Bartholomew [52:36] Yeah, I mean, I think it depends, again, you know, on the situation, but, you know, Ben does cost money, it costs money to file the court papers, it costs money to go to court and not be working. So I think you want to look at that, you know, before you decide to file, look at the cost benefit analysis and see if it could make sense. I mean, there certainly are situations where I can you need to get a judgment. Um, but, uh, I think it's at least worth thinking about and looking at the numbers and seeing if you could avoid all that.

Joe Knight [53:08] If you do it through the court, then you have the sheriff's department on your side. If you do it yourself, you do not have the sheriff's department on your side yet. And so we have had, though not many, maybe a handful of tenants move out, before the allotted court date, the landlord comes to court, the manager comes to court, and happily smiles and says, I'll take a voluntary dismissal, and they go back by the residence, and the tenant is moving back in. Totality effects is something we heard in law school, thought we were going to throw up. But it really is a totality of facts, analysis, and sometimes you're just gonna be wrong.

But I would, I would hate the notion that I took a voluntary dismissal because I'm in a hurry. I'm already there. The tenant's not here. He didn't pay me, or he broke the lease in some other way. It's not just to get the tenant out, is to make sure the tenant stays out.

Zac Ruiz [54:23] All right, so we're gonna go start in the back and work our way front. So Mike's first, second, third. Go, Mike.

Speaker 2 [54:33] So the question is, with a verbal lease, what obstacles have you found? Or challenges?

Zac Ruiz [54:40] Can we add a part B to that? Is there any reason you'd ever want to do a verbal lease?

Joe Knight [54:46] You limit your remedies. So you limit your remedies to the statutory remedies for eviction. So if you have an oral lease that's year to year, month to month, that's going to determine the statute's going to determine what your options are to evict that person. Normally, in an oral lease, there are only two conditions under which you can always evict, nonpayment of the rent and criminal action. All those other rules that you may have made up in your head, and may have had a conversation about, the general statute doesn't care about.

Benjamin Many [55:26] Yeah, don't do a verbal lease. Although, hey, a verbal lease might be better than something you pull off the internet and you're hoping that it works out.

Zac Ruiz [55:38] All right, so, yes, sir, go for it. Behind you. Well, you'll next.

Benjamin Many [55:46] So that's highly specific, and, you know, we are lawyers. We are not your lawyer. Um, so I would say you need to talk to somebody about it, but we're not gonna sort of, you've given us a very specific situation about a tenant, uh, issue you're having right now. It's not appropriate for us to get in here and advise you about what to do about that, okay? You know, Joe has a story.

Joe Knight [56:12] When I was in law school, one of my friends from Asheville was also in law school, he beat me to law school by year. We were both older students. We both rented our houses. He rented his house, and unbeknownst to him, tenants moved in with cats, plural, and they let the cats plural, and he was in law school in Durham. And when you were in law school, that's where you are. And so he, he didn't find out until the summer or until the end of the term when he was visiting a friend across the street that he could smell the house. And so he had to, it was an older house. So just food for thought.

He had to replace the flooring, the subflooring, part of the joists, have the basement dug out, because the cat urine had gone down into the unsealed cement and continued to go down. And so pets can cost you a fortune. I have no idea how much that costs. And they were hardwood floors, and they were the original hardwood floors, which he had to have ripped out. And so you're going to have, and Ben said, you may want to consult an attorney. You may want to make a decision. Um, It is not your job to make sure people have housing. It's not your job. And, um, It's your investment.

And one of, when I've talked before, I've also pointed out to landlords, you are in the, you and your tenants are in the business of making you money and providing them a place to stay. And if they're not good partners, then you need to think about what to do. You could sell the house. You could sell it to them. I mean, there are a myriad of options that you have. But you could have an extremely costly repair far more than you imagine.

Benjamin Many [58:33] And I'm sorry to pick on this, gentlemen, but just so y'all know, if you ask a question that starts out, my current tenant and I have a least dispute, we're not going to answer the question, okay? put it between the lines a little bit, maybe you'll get an allegory from Joe or May or David on that kind of thing, okay? Maybe you have a friend that has a situation.

Zac Ruiz [58:54] Ask around to this room. I am sure you're not the only person who's experienced that. I know we've gone through multiple of those situations all the time, and, man, there's not a right answer that we found that works every single time, but I think there's a lot of people, if you ask around after the meeting, we'll probably get some interesting feedback. All right, Steve, what's your question?

Speaker 2 [59:13] And rent, do you have to wait 10 days for that rent to be sent in?

Joe Knight [59:19] If you have an oral lease, you are stuck with holdover notices or the 10 day demand. If you have a written lease, your written lease is going to drive that, totally. In the, for example, in the AANC lease, it is explicitly clear that any breach of the lease, the landlord can file for eviction without any further notice or demand, that default clause or reentry clause, that provision is not part of consumer protection. in North Carolina at this point. The North Carolina legislature has left the default clause, which is how you take possession back. up to you. And if you choose to take the lengthier path, you chose to take the lengthier path.

Unknown [1:00:10] That makes sense.

Benjamin Many [1:00:12] Yeah. It's confusing for a lot of folks that there is this law out there, but this is one of the ones that can be contracted around. It's a default statute. So if the lease is silent on this issue, then that's the rule. If you, for some reason, allow the tenant 20 days to pay their rent. Well, you're also stuck with that too. You can't go back and say, I'll take the 10 day demand now. So your lease can govern that.

Unknown [1:00:36] Awesome. Thank you.

Zac Ruiz [1:00:38] Question. All right. Go here, you're next. Carolyn.

Speaker 2 [1:00:45] So if you have to take a tenant to court, How can you recover those costs?

Joe Knight [1:00:51] Under North Carolina General Statutes, which is a recent change, but it was always the practice in my court, is if you sue someone for eviction, and it is posted, and they do not show up to court, I cannot legally do a money judgment. However, and let's pretend that you win the eviction part, it has always been, and now is explicitly so part of the general statute, that you can sue for money owed, because the claim for money didn't get dismissed, it couldn't be heard. And so in Buncombe County, we have a, I met with the clerk of court to make sure we had a very elegant way to do this. Let's say that your file number is 230001. You're the 1st case of the year. You come in, you get possession.

You still know where the tenant lives. You can turn around and fill out a complaint for money owed, and a new summons using the same file number, and you only have to pay for additional sheriff service, this case, because it's a money owed, is going to be put out 30 days. It's going to go down the branch all by itself. That is your avenue to sue the tenant and attempt to get the monies that are owed. And if you think about it, having it put off 30 days is also to your advantage because probably by then you will have an opportunity to get back in the residence and have a better idea of, oh, well, they owe me the rent, they stole the dishwasher.

And so that exceeds the security deposit by $1,500. I'm suing for $1,500. I have 2 court costs. I'd like to recover those. That's $252. That's how you do that in Buncombe County. I do not know how it works in any other county of North Carolina. But when, when we had the opportunity, you could always do that in my court, because you can do that in every civil court. Sometimes a claim will be extinguished or sometimes it won't be heard or it's pending settlement, but you have these other 2 claims. It's the same thing in eviction. But anyway, simple answer. You have your judgment for eviction, you sue for money owed. In the money owed case, the person has to be personally served.

So you have to sue them while you know where they live. Whether or not you will ever see that money is unknown. Every civil judge, every civil judgment is good for 10 years, but I will tell you that because of the economy, and because of the last recession, people are taking all civil money judgments much more seriously, creditors. So we get judgments paid off 2 years, 5 years, 8 years, when somebody wants a ticket item, they want to go on a nice vacation, or they want a new big screen TV, or they want to buy a car, they see, or they want to buy real estate, the creditor see that they have a judgment that's gone unpaid. And so they do get paid. The percentage, No clue. Minimal. Thank you.

But that's the avenue.

Benjamin Many [1:04:30] Do you want to add anything, Ben? I was just going to reiterate. I mean, getting a judgment for money is very, very different than actually collecting on that judgment. I mean, we know they don't own real property if they're renting from you, which is often how people collect. So there are a lot of cases where the money judgment. If you're there anyway, but it might not be worth the money or the paper that it's printed on. All right, Lucas, yeah.

Speaker 2 [1:05:00] So what is a common example of when you would withhold that? No, we have a handout for that.

Joe Knight [1:05:07] It really is fact specific. I was getting ready to answer the last question, because I think I have a good answer for it. Because it's not a last question, because it's the last question. It is not a bad emotion. How to begin to build a relationship with your tenant, and vice versa? If I was a, I think the tenant needs to know that you're taking your residence seriously, and you need to have evidence for court when you end up in court, you should have pictures of every unit, when how it looks when people move in, and you should have a checklist. And now we have digital cameras. So you may take 5000 pictures and you may not have but one trial.

But you can delete all those pictures after you get rid of the tenant. You need to be ready for court. That's how you can build a good relationship of trust. Verify and trust. Digital pictures and a checklist. before and after.

Zac Ruiz [1:06:12] All right. So get the handout.

Benjamin Many [1:06:18] Phoebe, let's not have this conversation here. I mean, come on. No, no, she has a friend. She has a friend. Asking for a friend.

Joe Knight [1:06:26] You know, uh, it is legal to charge first month, last month, and as to the amount of the security deposit is driven by the length of the lease, that is in the general statute.

Benjamin Many [1:06:38] I think what he's getting at is that ultimately you can potentially figure out maybe who's a better tenant in other ways. Um, I don't have, I mean, I think that's a, Thoughtful people think deeply about that question and struggle with it, I think. because you want to do the right thing. Be reasonable, do the best you can do. It is it's tricky and talk to somebody if you're uncertain. I don't know what else to, there's, it's, I'll chime in on that.

Zac Ruiz [1:07:16] So one thing that we do a little bit is we score all of our tenants, and so there's just a scorecard and every tenant gets a score. Objective criteria. That's the way we look at it. And then that way, if we're trying to, you know, look at a tenant, you can just be like, hey, this person scored the highest. And then you have this consistent record on the way you track every single person, how they apply, et cetera. That might be able to serve as a good tiebreaker with, you know, some support for what you're doing.

Joe Knight [1:07:48] Photos are better than videos.

Benjamin Many [1:07:53] It's a good tip. All right, yeah, go for it, David. insurance.

Unknown [1:07:58] Lots of it.

Benjamin Many [1:08:03] You can only get from the tenant, you know, but you're going to get from the tenant, you know, but.

Joe Knight [1:08:08] In North Carolina, you cannot garnish their wages or attach their taxes. Any money judgment will be reported to the credit reporting agencies, I think within three, 4 months, anyway, it's going to stay on their credit report for 10 years. That's becoming ever so more important. If you are averse to risk, you may be in the wrong business.

Zac Ruiz [1:08:31] Truth. All right, guys, last question, if somebody wants to close it down. Going once. All right, Dylan, can I refhrase that as, like, any insight on how to manage a good tenant landlord relationship if they have government backed housing?

Joe Knight [1:08:48] Are we focusing on the relationship or section eight?

Zac Ruiz [1:08:50] The relationship with a tenant that has government backed housing. you know, whether it's section 8 or some other sort of voucher.

Joe Knight [1:08:58] Section 8 has 161, 71 programs, is that about right?

Zac Ruiz [1:09:04] I think the focus...

Joe Knight [1:09:06] Yeah, probably David, you can probably touch on this a lot. And some of those programs have their own leases that override any lease that you may have. So it there is, it's not section eight. It's section 8 times. 161 programs. And so that, which is the reason why, if you come to my court, when you come, I say, may I need to see the lease and any, the last notice, your last written communications. The reason is that the lease drives court.

David Bartholomew [1:09:40] Yeah, I'll say, I mean, on the summary ejectment complaint, you know, you have to decide, you have to check whether it's conventional or public housing. So there are going to be additional requirements. What I would say if you're in Buncombe County, you know, thrive is an organization really trying to engage landlords, and there's a lot of incentives. And the other thing about, you know, taking government subsidies is that check is always there, right? I mean, if you've suffered some nonpayment issues, This is a program that ties the rent, the tenants-based rent to their income.

So when they lose their job or they have health issues or some other problem happens, like their rent drops to 0 and you get the same amount of money. So I don't think it makes sense for everyone, but I do think, you know, it's worth checking into, certainly if you're gonna do it, um, as Judge was saying, I mean, there's a lot of different kinds of programs. They come with their own rules. So it's not just, it's not just state law here around an eviction, it's federal law around the voucher, the subsidy that they have a property interest in.

Joe Knight [1:10:42] Own appellate federal cases as well. So, one case that is worthy of pointing out is, if you get to the point with a tenant where you have given them notice to be out and you get your section eight, you can't accept any rent. You can't accept the rent from the tenant, and you can't accept it from the government. Well, this government has send it to you. The most recent case that I know about is you have to send the money back to the government for that tenant. You don't get to keep it. So, education from reliable sources. I sound like a broken record.

Benjamin Many [1:11:24] All right, so Guaranteed money, though. I mean, it's guaranteed you're going to get your money. You know? I mean, there are some hoops you have to jump through. There's some people in this town who have done very, very well with lots of section 8 tenants or other types of vouchers. And yeah, there's some hoops, but if you're smart and you get organized and you know what you're doing, guaranteed money.

Zac Ruiz [1:11:46] All right, last question, it's going to be filling the blank. So one word, maybe one sentence at most. The key to a sexual tenant landlord relationship is...

Joe Knight [1:11:57] The free information at the Small Claims Office is not online. It's more than one word, Jess. Oh, forgive me. It is not online. I'm not mailing it to you. I'm not emailing it to you, but you are free to stop by, you can get a copy of all of it for free. All right.

Zac Ruiz [1:12:16] David? Clarity.

Unknown [1:12:18] And Ben?

Benjamin Many [1:12:19] I mean, it's two words. Can I still do it?

Zac Ruiz [1:12:22] Yeah, two words. Be reasonable. Be reasonable. All right, thank you, guys. Big round of applause for a panelist, please.

Unknown [1:12:32] Yeah.

Zac Ruiz [1:12:35] Next month, y'all, first Tuesday of October, short term rentals. Hope to see you all there. All the information will be on the website. Thanks so much for coming out tonight, y'all. Take care.