Secrets Of Effective Landlording

Zac Ruiz [0:00] So, welcome to AVLmeetup. Quick agenda of how things are gonna go down, right? So, first five minutes on housekeeping, tell you about a couple new things we have going on. Then we're gonna do a Reeze report, so we're gonna talk about the real estate market. With respect to the rental market, very on point for tonight. We're gonna kick it off for a table question. We've got the panel, and then audience Q and A. And we have a commitment. We will turn off the mics at 7:30. You're going home at 7:30 tonight. I promise you that. So if I speak too fast, 'cause I'm trying to do that. So, my name's Zachary Rees.

I am one of the co hosts of AVLmeetup, and our whole thing is, we're trying to bring the movers and Shakers in Asheville, all under one roof, to do the thing, especially. So I would encourage you to speak to everyone around. And we are about what we like to call the net profit philosophy, right? And so, what that stands for is, we believe, that you will profit from the sum total of your efforts from networking, educations, and, obviously, transactions. So we think if you network and educate yourself, then transactions, are the natural outcome. So come networking, as of last event, based on check ins, we've had 1,968 people attend our events. Come education time.

We've had 5,700 hours of education and networking. We just do that based on check ins and math. And then transactions. Raise the hands. I see a lot of new faces. Who's done a transaction with someone in the room previously? All right, so the more hands that go up there, the better. That is the goal of the thing. Right? The easiest way to do it. We're always looking for quality volunteers. As you notice, checking in today, The price is right. It is free. And so, we basically work off people helping us and trading their time. So, a huge thank you to the volunteers, if we can get a quick round of applause. Speaking of which, if you would like to volunteer, we have a super easy application.

Basically every screen that has buttons on it. One of those buttons is helpless volunteer. It's everywhere, right? You can basically volunteer to help us set up, move things, tear down, move them back, right? Facilitate, if you just kind of want to be, like, a people person, or welcome tables, so help checking in. And that's the gist of that, right? So the next part of our check in stuff is we want to talk about some new things. People have asked for some things to change, and we have changed them. One of them is, you might have noticed that you need to check in as a member tonight in order to sign up. All right?

We give you some reasons why you should do that, uh, and to create an account as fast as you can type, or hit auto, like, auto fill, it's done. It's very, very painless, even though it is friction. So why check in? Because who did ask for that, right? Not many people. I'll be honest. Uh, but, uh, it's for the post defend emails. So this is something super cool that we're starting, and we need you to check in to know that you were here. right? So we're gonna send an email, and you're gonna get this email tonight. So I'm gonna go over it really, really quickly. We're gonna give you the event stats. Who came? Who was the first timer? What was our head count? Right?

Then we're gonna give you the poll results. So hopefully you guys checked into that. We're gonna ask you for feedback because we believe that feedback is a gift, and that's how it gets better. And finally, we'll tell you about the other events that are coming up. Right? So this email, you can check it by the time we're closing up tonight, if all goes well. It will be in your account. It's the first time it might not work. We'll see what happens. Uh, we also fix the member profile. So the whole thing about networking, right? You gotta find out. So if you log in and go to and hit that little button, you can put your picture now.

So when people are looking for you, they can actually find you, right? 'Cause names don't travel that far unless you just start screaming them. And as you see, when you log in on the member directory, you can see everyone. We got 700 and something members now. Let's look at Will King. Will King just signed up. There he is right there. Right? In the middle, just signed up, said, I am the owner inspector at Highside Home Inspections. If you're looking for a home inspector, You can filter and find Will King, and find his picture. Good job, Will King. That just happened. That was live. That was I was making these things. Also, just a quick shout out.

Maybe you've noticed we had some Instagram posts. That was thanks to this lady. Haley Gant, at the back. If we could get a quick round of applause. That's the last one, I promise, it's a real show after this. Uh, and not helping, because she volunteered, and we asked for help, so here's the deal. We need help. As it turns out, there's only two of us, and if you think you can help make this place better, please come and talk to us, we would love your help. All right, now the real show, right? Over with the stuff. So, we're gonna talk about what I call the Ruiz Report. We've been running this since March 2020, so that's 62 reports. It's kinda wild. And our mission's basically twofold, right?

We want everyone to have the best data available. We have direct feeds into MLS. There's no cleaning. It's raw data. And we want you to have that information so that you are a local economist, a choice. You know what's going on. Making decisions with eyes wide open. And so, we haven't done a Ruiz Report in a while, so we're gonna do a quick little primer. I have this fun little graph, and this is how it works, okay? So we have these at a glance slides, and we're going to go over them. The number on the left is what happened in this month, and tonight, we're going over April, because it's over, right? We can't go over May until it's done, so we have April data.

On the right, you're gonna see the percent change versus last month. So we're doing April versus March on the bottom. It's April versus April, year over year. And then you'll see there's arrows. And those arrows are packed with information. One, there's directionally. Did it go down or up? But then there's a color. Did it decline, or did it improve, and we actually get to see that tonight with some nuances, right? So let's go, at a glance, a lot of information, we're gonna run through it. First off, new listings. This is inventory. All I care about is supply and demand. This is the supply site. As you can see, month over month, but certainly year over year, massive increases in supply.

Those are listings, right? Then we have demand. Homes under contract, one thing I forgot to mention is when you check in and sign up, you'll get the slides. So take all the pictures you want, but that's another fun benefit. I forgot to mention that. So, under contract is when the home seller and a buyer came to agreement during the month of April. Home sold, those homes likely went under contract in a previous month, right? Probably March or even February. So, home sold is lagging, and, well, so, it's under contract, but it lags less, right? So less people went under contract, significantly less year over year, and then less home sold year over year.

And remember, that's trailing from, let's call it, two months ago. So let's look at these numbers, year over year. Remember up in red being good and bad? Basically, what it's saying is that there is more for sale, and less of it is selling. That's happening year over year. All right? Now we're going to talk about velocity. How quickly is the market moving? We'll do the same thing. Oh, remember that? How can it be up in red and green at the same time? Let's talk about it. It's because it's declined or improved. So the market is gauged from the seller's perspective. If there's more stuff for sale, it's a vibrant market. That is good. So, active listings. There's a 45% increase.

What does that mean? If you were to look up right now and say, Hey, can I buy a house for 500 grand? There's, like, six of them. I track how many homes are available for sale, period, throughout the month, every single day? and total up the unique count? So the unique count of homes available at any given time is up 45% year over year. That's a huge increase. Problem is, there's months of inventory, and that's almost doubled year over year. So what's that? If you just think, and you open your fridge, and you go, Man, how long until I have to go to the grocery store? Same idea.

If you look at the inventory, and based on how quickly homes have been selling over the past 12 months, how long would it take for there to be no homes left if we didn't add any? It's that number right there. And it used to be one or less for a long time, a long time. And now we're veering into neutral territory going towards a buyer's market. Median days on market, so that's if you take all the days on market, line them up from smallest to largest, pick the middle one, and assume 50% of homes sold in 14 days or less, which is, like, amazing, right? But that's a 56% increase here over here. So things are changing, right? So let's look at these numbers again. We got arrows, they're fun.

There's more for sale, less of it is selling, and it's taking longer to sell. This is just the year over year picture. All right? Finally, this is the last out of glance slide pricing. Average list to sale and original list to sale. Original list to sale, the example is always, if I put a home for a trillion dollars, nobody buys it. I lower it to $100,000, it sells for $100,000. My list to sale is 100%. $100,000, $100,000. My original list of sales, like 0.001%, because I had to reduce so much. So this is, based on their first stab, they're 94% off. Your first time, your first day on the market, looks like you got a 6% haircut coming. And that's down 3%. So we've gotten worse at pricing.

Then the average list is sales, so once the offer comes in, it looks like you're still taking a 4% haircut, right? And then the sale price is still increasing. So we're gonna unpack this just a little bit. All the numbers combined, what do we say? Seller's price expectations are stuck in the past. That's what's happening. The reason the original list of sale keeps going down, because you're having to make these adjustments. And that's a whole other talk, but if you price right, you're still in the money, and even in this market. But homes are still more valuable year over year. That's still happening. So let's move to the graphs, 'cause I like to call it. They pretty shapes and colors, right?

I just gave you a lot of information. Let's look at it. That's another way to do it. Right? So this is my favorite slide in the report. It is supply and demand. Listings and pendings, supply and demand. So what were the new listings in the month, and what were the homes that went under contract? Quick explanation, how do I read this graph? When the red bar is above the green line, That means we added more listings, the red Bart, then we took off. The green line. We have added supply in this scenario. When the red bar is below the green bar, we took off more than we added, reducing supply. What you will notice is that we have added a tremendous amount of supply, proportionally, recently.

And if you do it again, we have added inventory, 15 of the last 15 months, maybe we're missing a slide, we are. Don't worry about it. It's gonna pop up later. We have added more inventory than we've taken off for the past 15 months, all right? So how does supply and demand effect pricing? In everything in life, when there is a lot of surprise, price goes down, except for real estate, apparently. So, uh, if you were to look at this, because there's, like, a shortage in general, right? So you don't want to look at month over month. That doesn't really tell you all that much. You're just, like, trying to time the market. You don't want to do that. Right?

So the pro tip is to look at it over the course of a longer period of time. All of our graphs do 15 months, that's the trend line. I would call it flattish. It is like just barely not flat, but it's basically flat. Right? So prices are holding in spite of interest rates going up, which means the price is more expensive, come debt to income ratio, like how most people afford a home, and despite there being significantly more inventory. Like economic school of thought, great reasons for price to decrease, not happening in our market, so far. Right? Great. How is this playing on real life? We're at the secrets of landlords, right? What does this matter? Let's do some math.

If I went to Zillow, and I did today, and do all bedrooms, all home types, as of yesterday, you'll see that the average price for rent is 1900. I used this slide last month. And as you can see, it is gone down. Last month, it was 2,000. So prices in the rental market are coming down. That we can say. Right? Oh, look at that, month over month change. I should have... Anyways, right? So average is 1,900, medians, whatever. Let's call it 2 grand for fun, right? A mortgage calculator. If I do a 3.5%, so that's an FHA, that's the minimum I can do if I can qualify. And I just reverse math. $2,004 is close enough, right? That's a home price of $275,000.

Unknown [11:54] Alright?

Zac Ruiz [11:55] So, I feel like there are some slides missing. So, upfront cash, if I were to buy, I would need that 9,600 bucks, and if I were to rent, generally, it's, like, first in deposit or first and last, let's call it four grand. So right now, if you're in the market to rent short term, you're winning. Inventory. Let's go shopping. Now we've got a budget, right? What can I get? Well, let's see what we can buy. For sale for $275, 18 results. That's all Buncombe County. It's not looking too good. And if you look a little closer, I don't think these are real. This is an unfinished interior, that's a rendering that doesn't exist yet, right? This is, uh, what is this? Yeah, that's a tiny home.

It's 590 square feet. That's also a rendering that doesn't exist, but whatever. We're gonna give them the whole 18. All right? Two grand a month, what can I rent? For rent, up to 2K, 119 rentals. Supply and demand. 119 rentals. I am a landlord. I'm not thrilled about that number. Uh, so, well, rentals, they're winning the day again. which is nicer. I wanted to use this meme, all right? I'm looking for something luxurious, but I don't want to spend a lot. Say no mo, all right? So, uh, but seriously, I'm not really gonna answer that. You should read books, right? Rich dad, poor dad. There is so much more to owning a home.

And if you're only doing it for a short amount of time, there is a great case to rent. If you go to, like, Nerd Wallet, they have all sorts of, uh, you know, different calculators based on how long you think you're gonna be there. But if you think you're gonna own longer term, and if you think it's gonna turn into an asset, which he would very much disagree with, it's a fun read, I'd encourage you to look more. So that brought up this fun meme. All right? We'll read it. When you were approved for a $600,000 home loan in 2020, but your dad told you to wait for prices to drop, and now you have to live with your dad. Right? And for the studio audience at home, we're looking at Pablo Escobar.

waiting. Can we run the numbers? Like, how bad is this? Let's do it. All right? So, we go to Fred. What was the prevailing mortgage rate five years ago, May 7, 2020? 3.26%? All right, 2025 numbers. So same 3.5% down, $600,000 home, 30 years, prevailing rates. You are at 4,300 bucks a month. 2020 numbers. Same stats, 3.5, you're at 23,000 a month. All right? So today, 43, 2020, 3,000, the difference, it's not good, in case you're wondering, it's 13, 14, in case you're wondering, that's $483,000 over the course level, whatever, right? So, anyways, here are the three takeaways from what you should grab from this, and it'll inform the questions we're about to do.

One, supply is currently beating demand, and prices don't care, thus far. That's what's happening, right? Two, you're gonna run a nicer place than you could buy right now. So I skipped that, 'cause, like, you know, that's everyone's taste. I wasn't gonna go nitpicking listings, but, like, you can do more renting right now. Uh, three, there is a lot more to being a landlord than cash flow, and we're gonna talk about that. If you're losing or breaking even, but someone's paying down your loan and you're gaining equity and tax advantages, Is that a bad deal? I don't know. We gonna talk about it tonight.

So, if you want to break down your own market reports, totally for free, you can sign up for the Riz report. We have a training video on every one of these slides that speaks slower than I am right now, and breaks it down. Bobo style, uh, and so with that, we're gonna open up to a table question. All right? So if you scan this QR code, you get to vote, and it'll pop up live, and we'll all get to see who's wrong in the room. All right? So, we're gonna give you 10 minutes. Talk amongst yourselves. Please vote. We'll give, like, five minute debrief, and then we're gonna kick it into the panel. So, I'll see you guys in a little bit.

Michael Outar [0:00] Every situation is going to be a little more unique depending on the property, the tenant, so you just got to take it as it comes, but sometimes it's better to just say, yeah, I'll give you what you want, just get out, you know, in a certain way. And you're not being soft, you're being smart because there's more headache.

Speaker 2 [0:17] Welcome to this stage. And look, this guy's gonna hit the ground running. You've got the 1st question. Are you ready? And dubitably. Indubitably. There we go. All right, friends. Let's kick it off. Introduction to the murder.

Speaker 3 [0:33] Um, it's not even on the card, and I'm already changing it up, but just give us the give us the two sentences of, like, who you are and what we need to know about you. Two sentences, three sentences. Let's start with Michael on the right.

Michael Outar [0:45] Yeah, so I'm a landlord, I'm a GC. I build duplexes, and mostly have long term holds.

Unknown [0:51] Beautiful.

Carla Barnard [0:53] Commercial real estate broker. Have lots of great brokers at firm, do commercial real estate.

Rodrigo Afanador [0:59] Nailed it? Uh, Rodrigo, been, uh, buying houses here and there since about 2013, 2012.

Speaker 2 [1:07] You did have one more sentence if you wanted.

Speaker 3 [1:10] Now runs, vessel.

Rodrigo Afanador [1:11] Yes. Now I manage houses?

Speaker 3 [1:13] Perfect. So, um, a couple of questions for y'all. Um, how did you, how did each of you get your first property? And what was your biggest mistake early on? Let's start again with Michael.

Michael Outar [1:26] Uh, I actually purchased my mom's house, uh, back in, uh, what was it, 2013? And, uh, yeah, that was the beginning of everything. It made me realize how easy real estate can be, and also hard at the same time. As far as the biggest mistake is probably vetting my tenants, and not listening to my gut, which I could go into later on, I think some of the questions. Oh, we're gonna talk about that?

Unknown [1:52] Yeah.

Carla Barnard [1:52] Um, we decided to build our, ooh, we decided to build our own heist, which turned out well financially. We turned it into an Airbnb, and we sold it to a company out of California, but the unfortunate thing we learned was that framing your own heist is not a good idea.

Rodrigo Afanador [2:15] I bought my first house using a cash advance on a credit card. So it was a mobile home in a park that had a whole lot of rules that I didn't even know could exist. And so I was also, like, my first big mistake, as well, was a good way to get started. That is a good way.

Speaker 2 [2:30] Usually we go back and forth, but we have to jump to Michael for this, all right? So, the one comment about how easy real estate could be. Here's the question. Why do you think landlording has a reputation for being passive income? And do you think it really is? No, it is not.

Michael Outar [2:45] I think it's a lot of talking heads, social media, um, an understanding of, hey, just set it and forget it type of thing. And that is far from the case, especially if you self manage like I do.

Speaker 2 [2:57] Right? And we're just gonna go down the line, if you don't mind.

Carla Barnard [3:01] I blame the internet and the Dunning Kruger effect, which we talk about a lot in our office.

Speaker 2 [3:08] We'll add that to the show notes, get a little, unless, can you break it down real quick?

Carla Barnard [3:11] Um, it's the idea that, um, people don't know what they don't know, so people, um, underestimate their own abilities and underestimate the abilities of others.

Rodrigo Afanador [3:27] I think it's considered passive oftentimes because it's like on paper, it is passive, right? Conceptually speaking, it's an easy thing to consider as passive, and the missing piece to that is, it is passive, if you make a lot of all these right decisions first. But the beginning part of it is the missing piece to the puzzle for sure.

Speaker 2 [3:46] So just kind of a quick follow up, and not to spoil, would you say it gets more and potentially completely passive, if you have management in between you, and the tenant?

Rodrigo Afanador [3:57] I think for it to be completely passive, then you're flirting with, like, abdication of responsibility, and I don't know if that's too far on the spectrum, but does it get more passive? I think the longer you do it, yes. Perfect, perfect.

Speaker 3 [4:10] So, I'm a landlord myself. I've got a handful of rental properties. And so I manage some, and then some, I don't manage myself. So, let's say you had a property management company. How would you tell me when to manage it myself or for you to do it? Let's start with you, Rodrigo.

Rodrigo Afanador [4:33] Well, I've never heard this question before. I think what I always tell people is the tipping point comes if either you're not enjoying the hands on management side of it, and some people really enjoy it. It's not like it's a bad thing. It's just a lot of moving pieces, or if the management, even if you do enjoy it, is taking away from other things that are more important to you. At a certain point management is just filling a gap of time and energy. And so if the time and energy that you have is feeling a little bit depleted because of the rental, then maybe that's a good time to consider getting management.

Or the other alternative is if you are trying to pursue the passive dream, then you should always do management right off the bat, because then it's baked into your numbers, and then when you're running things, you can have a better projection forward for what it could look like in the road.

Speaker 2 [5:22] So a quick caveat. So for everyone in the audience. So Carla, being the commercial broker of choice in Asheville here, sees the other side of this from the commercial aspect, right? So if you want to answer all these questions, kind of, from the lens of, like, what you're advising commercial clients to do and everything for leases, that would be amazing. I just want to let everyone know that that's where we're headed.

Carla Barnard [5:42] Thank you for the caveat. Um, so property management is much more common in commercial, you're typically dealing with larger properties and more tenants and more complexities, and, um, my advice to, um, most people is, I think you should try to manage your property, um, so that you can be better giving instructions and be more understanding at the point where you do take on a property manager. But if you are not physically present in the area, or you are not handy, or you have per communication skills, you should get a property manager.

Speaker 2 [6:17] And are you in the same boat with Rodrigo to kind of bake in the fees up front when you're doing the numbers on your projects or...?

Carla Barnard [6:25] Uh, yeah, and commercial, um, your property tax insurance and your other operating costs are typically passed through to the tenant. Property management gets a little sticky, and clever tenants will push back on it, or they'll seek a cap on property management costs. So, um, usually we see that pushback with fees above 6%. Oh, beautiful.

Speaker 2 [6:46] That was the follow up. Thank you.

Michael Outar [6:47] Yeah, I don't know how much I can really add to those two comments. I will say if I was starting out new, I would definitely manage my own property first. You learn so much, especially if that property is something like, myself, I'm normally building these from ground up. So I have an emotional attachment to them, and I don't want to just throw anybody in there. And some property managers might not take the time to actually, as much as they should. But, so, yeah, I would highly recommend, and not only learning the skill of how to talk to, but also how to actually do your own maintenance. With YouTube now, almost everybody can be a professional.

Speaker 2 [7:27] So do you exclusively self manage, or do you... Okay, so you're the self managed guy on the panel? Perfect, awesome.

Speaker 3 [7:35] I was especially excited to ask that one, because just Friday, Rodrigo and I met to take pictures of a property of mine that he will start managing. So I've been managing all of mine on my own, and, Rodrigo, I'm hearing that all of mine I should turn over to you right now. Is that right? Yes, of course.

Rodrigo Afanador [7:52] Everybody in the room should follow crime's decision making tree here.

Michael Outar [7:56] I will interject this is that I'm getting to the point now that property management is starting to show a better ROI for my time. So that's something that has to be considered when you do start to grow, because it's just not worth it, right? You could take your time and better serve someplace else than managing.

Speaker 2 [8:15] So we're gonna, I think we'll get a chance to unpack that a little bit later. But, so, personally, I have rentals, and I've gone exclusively to property management now, because I can't afford it time wise. It's not a better financial decision right now. We'll kind of talk about that, but it's a better life decision by a long shot. So there's more to it. So now, fair housing act in mind and all the lawyer stuff, right, here's the next question. What's your personal red flag that tells you that a tenant isn't worth the risk, even if everything checks out on paper?

Unknown [8:45] You're on your own.

Michael Outar [8:48] Um, I look at their vehicle, and their car, I go take a look around while they're in the building. This sounds crazy, but if they have a voicemail greeting, that speaks a lot to me about the type of person they are. Awesome. And just a normal handshake, eye contact, vocabulary, all those different things, and really my gut at the end of the day. That's, again, why I like to self manage, because I get to see the person that's gonna be living in my place.

Speaker 2 [9:20] I'm in the in between times where I'm like, would I do this? And then it's like, Well, wait, would I care if I had 100 units? You know, it's like, so it's finding where that is. before we got... am curious.

Speaker 3 [9:32] Is there one example of a terrible voicemail or a terrible car? 'Cause I think we're all wondering.

Michael Outar [9:38] Oh, absolutely. Yeah, yes. With your one. Well, one in particular is the only tenant I've ever had to evict. And I got mad at myself, 'cause I said, I didn't listen to, not the voicemail. It was the car one. And, uh, you know, I paid for that. But, and I think this might be a question later, but sometimes you start to panic and think, Man, this thing's been vacant for a while. I better get somebody in there, and you start lowering your standards. So that's a whole nother thing. don't know anything about that.

Speaker 2 [10:04] So, sorry, Carl?

Carla Barnard [10:07] So our tenants that we're either representing or we're vetting for a listing are typically they have a business or they want to start a business in the space. And so the vetting is very heavy. And if they come with, like, a good 10, rep, they've probably put them through their pieces, and they're coming prepared with a business plan and finances, et cetera. Stacy Wheeler and Abigail Faro over there are very, very good at this. So we're looking out for ill prepared, per communication, and daddy's money. Big red flag.

Speaker 2 [10:43] So that was my, I love that you gave us the percentage. Is there, like, a reserve amount you guys are looking for? Do you escrow money? Like, how does that work?

Carla Barnard [10:50] No, we only escrow if somebody's coming in, and they're planning to do really substantial up fit, and we think that they're not going to be able to do it. So, we, we credit them back around, check them just as you would for a residential rental, and then we look at business plans, and we ask for proof of landing and proof of funds.

Speaker 2 [11:08] So, in general, versus not that you're not in business with a tenant that's living in your home, but you're kind of believing in the business, and you're in business with these people.

Carla Barnard [11:17] Yeah, and you're hoping that they are going to pay rent and not destroy the property and hopefully finish their upfit. So they're, it's a leap of faith on both sides.

Speaker 2 [11:27] No, that's very real. That's different.

Unknown [11:30] Mr. Fonador?

Rodrigo Afanador [11:32] I agree mostly with Michael, like, we always have somebody on our team show every property in person, because of that, just that in person conversation matters a lot. Red flags, I, you know, no smells of, like, substances of any sort is a good thing. Um, you know, that's always a big one. The car's big one, and communication. I think if it's hard to get ahold of you.

If you respond to voicemails or calls, that, you know, one in the morning, things like that are always a little bit concerning, and then the last one is urgency, and that one's a little bit harder, because urgency is not always a bad thing, but we always just look at that a little bit deeper, because, you know, usually a little bit of foresight goes a long way. And if you don't have foresight, then, you know, there's a little couple follow up questions that we always have.

Speaker 2 [12:21] Yeah, it shouldn't be as surprised that your lease is ending. Correct. I mean, life happens.

Rodrigo Afanador [12:27] Like, there's sometimes good reasons, but if you need to move in tomorrow, like, why?

Speaker 2 [12:31] Why? That's a powerful question.

Speaker 3 [12:33] So speaking of the least ending, let's talk about leases. My rentals, I have just used the standard North Carolina and just handed it to them. I think I've even read it. So what is going to? edit that out. It hasn't bitten me yet? What's gonna bite me in the future? What's that's the next question for y'all is what are most landlords missing in their lease that it will bite them down the road? Let's start, Rodrigo.

Rodrigo Afanador [12:57] I think anything that talks about mold in condition of the property is important to be addressed in the lease up front, like, the lease that we use, when you take possession, you're asserting as a tenant, that it's in livable condition. And so, it's gonna be really hard for a tenant to make a claim that there is pre existing mold, because they're asserting that there wasn't at the time of move in, for instance, and that's definitely one that we've had a lot of phone calls on.

And then everything that governs any, like, when the lease ends and when notice has to be given, I think is also the two areas that we see the most amount of contention, or, oh, I didn't know that they could just leave right now, or things of that nature.

Carla Barnard [13:39] For us, the basic answer is, uh, landlords who don't read their lace, uh, and tenants who don't read their lease, which happens way more often than we would hope. Um, the most sort of pertinent, um, hot topic issue for us in commercial is post-hurricane. Nobody really looked at sections like 12 to 16 of the standard North Carolina commercial lease, which governs what happens when there's damage or destruction to the premises. What happens when excess or egress is impeded, what is substantial impediment to those things, and who is responsible, and who and how you can you get out of a lease, if basic utility service is not provided.

So if there is prolonged water or electricity outage, that becomes an issue. And I don't think any of us really spent enough time or attention negotiating those leases. And when we did, historically, the likes of Abigail and Stacy and I, we always got batted away with, like, that doesn't matter. Well, it really mattered in October and November.

Speaker 2 [14:48] So, in a residential lease, when you're just clicking next on DocuSign, not the same. Not the same when it comes... Right. Okay, perfect.

Michael Outar [14:57] I'd say liability insurance. It's one thing that I want to make sure your tenant has to pick up all those leaky toilets or dishwashers that it might overrun.

Speaker 2 [15:07] So requiring tenants to have rental insurance. Hard yes. What's? Requiring rent. You like that? Tenants that have rental insurance. Exactly. All right. Mr. Yeah, 100%.

Unknown [15:20] Does that is that a thing?

Speaker 2 [15:22] With in commercial real estate? An analogous?

Carla Barnard [15:25] They have to have a general liability policy with the lawnlord named as a co-insured, and we, at least on our listings, don't hand over the keys until we have a copy of that policy. Gold.

Unknown [15:36] Am I up?

Speaker 2 [15:38] I am up.

Michael Outar [15:39] Alright. from a self-managing standpoint. That is one of the advantages of using a property manager or professional is you have a tendency of maybe getting a little emotionally attached to your tenants, and you let things slip if you're not careful. Late, late fees is something you should never let slip, but insurance is one of those. Oh, I'll get it to you later, or, you know, I'm gonna pick that up later. Oh, okay. You know, I really need to get in here. I'm rushing, you know, hear every excuse in the book, where a property manager's gonna be like, no, I'm just not gonna do that, you know? So keep that in mind. Don't be a softie.

Speaker 2 [16:15] I was actually at another event when I was talking about renters and insurance. I'm like, wait, you have to do that? I was like, oh. And so I had to go back to all my tenants and be like, hey, by the way, you never sent that. All right, so the way we're kind of doing the discussion is kind of from, hey, I want to be a landlord. I vetting tenants. They're living here, they're moving out. So that's how we're hoping the questions to go here. And so moving into that part is, what's one thing during move in that sets the tone for a great tenant relationship? We'll start with Mr. Afonador here.

Rodrigo Afanador [16:44] So it's all about the move in inspection and just making sure to Michael's point is that you're not making any exceptions for any of your move in requirements. And so, have money, have your proof of insurance, show up on time, you know, be ready to go with the documents that have been needed. If you do that, move inspection, you walk through the property, then it's gonna avoid a lot of issues down on the back end, 'cause everybody's happy to move in, but there's always a lot of tension when you're moving out, and there's conversations about damages or unpaid fines or whatever the case might be.

Carla Barnard [17:16] We have a similar thing. In commercial leases, typically, there's work to be done to the property, and there's a negotiation as to whether the landlord or the tenant is doing that. So, um, keeping a close eye on that on the landlord side actually doing the repairs and the things that you're supposed to do in a timely manner, it sets the tone that that's exactly what you expect of the tenant. And we also encourage landlords to be sort of courteous, like, give the tenant a list of futility providers, introduce them to the property manager, walk, you know, walk around, come introduce yourself.

I think there's a lot of things that you can do to set the tone with kind of good manners and good communication.

Michael Outar [17:58] Yeah, I, uh, communication is huge. I rent a lot of my units per bedroom. So I'm dealing with people that potentially don't know each other, and so, um, I'm very forthcoming with what my expectations are from the beginning. And since I do my own maintenance, and I am my own property manager, they're gonna see me if there's a problem. One way, I found to get into a place is to tell them you're gonna replace the HVAC filters every three months. You could even do it every month if you wanted to. But do it every three months. You get in there, you look around, you get to see what's going on, 'cause a lot of my tenants are younger, aged age kids, so, yeah.

Communication, you gotta set the tone right off the bat.

Speaker 2 [18:42] That is a great tip. I'm show noting that one.

Speaker 3 [18:45] So the getting in and seeing when things are broken. You know, that's one thing I know you're looking for. Let's talk maintenance on that. I'm someone who actually enjoys maintenance requests. I'm weird. I do like I do like working on stuff. I like projects. I installed a storm door today. Backwards. First, at first. You gotta walk out to the porch to then slide the thing up to get the screen. And I'm like, Oh, I guess I'll come back to that later, and then I shut it, and then I went and shut all the way, because the knob hit the internal doorknob, so, you know, I enjoy it, but I'm really bad at it. Um, but on the, I don't know how this helps convo. I just want to make fun of myself.

So, anyhow, maintenance, though, you know, is a big conversation for anyone that's being a landlord owning a property. It's not if but win. Things are going to come up. How do you manage, like, a good relationship with your tenant to set the expectation that I'm gonna work on things, but I'm not gonna break the budget, you know? How do you ride that final line? Let's start with Mike.

Michael Outar [19:47] Uh, a lot of my properties are newer. So I haven't had as much to deal with that, but I just, I just kind of put myself in their shoes. Number one, if you're dealing with water. No landlord wants to deal with that. So you're gonna take care of that as soon as you can. If it's something like a beep and fire alarm or something that can wait a day or a week, then, you know, you just put yourself in their situation and think, could that person wait? You know, is it a big deal? And you communicate to that to them. I'm out of town, I have this issue, I have that issue to get over there. And most of the time people are pretty understanding.

Speaker 2 [20:17] Yeah, I do feel like that the human relationship with your landlord that you know, like, there is wiggle there. Whereas like, hey, this company, I sent them an email and they haven't responded, you know? Absolutely, yes.

Carla Barnard [20:28] The only way in which commercial real estate is easier than residential, from my perspective, is a fact that we actually heavily negotiate all the maintenance responsibilities ahead of time. So, um, we know who's responsible for electrical and plumbing and we negotiate, um, how much the landlord and tenant are responsible for in terms of like HVAC maintenance and replacement. So it's all predetermined and pretty like black and white.

Speaker 3 [20:56] So what is the most common when you're seeing on the commercial side, like maintenance request? Is there one that's way more common than the others?

Carla Barnard [21:04] Um, usually landscaping tree down type stuff. Otherwise, for the most part, the tenants responsible for their interior demise, like paint to paint, and if they're supposed to typically have a HVAC maintenance contract. And if they have that, and they've been servicing their units, then the lawnlord will pick up some maintenance after that. But yeah, it's a, yeah, HVAC related things and land skipping.

Rodrigo Afanador [21:32] I think with most things, it's like what Michael said, it's good communication, I will push back on the management. I think if like good management companies are going to have really good relationship with their tenants. Um, and especially around maintenance. Like you have a good experience if you've ever rented before and you've had a good experience with whoever the management was on dealing with maintenance issues. Like, you're going to be more likely to renew that lease to begin with because you have a trust that you're heard and that your concerns are addressed and that goes like a really long way in building trust with your, with whoever's renting from you.

And so I kind of forgot what the question was, but good communications, the answer to most questions. So.

Speaker 3 [22:08] And the follow-up on that is like, how do you not break the bank?

Rodrigo Afanador [22:13] So for us, it's a little bit more challenging because we don't make all the final calls on what the, what maintenance issues get addressed or not. A lot of those are owner decisions. Um, but basically, we're always gonna be addressing things that are gonna be considered emergency, so, like, water is always the most important, one or the most common one that we see. And then the issues that are a little bit more gray are aesthetic issues, like, oh, my fan in my living room isn't working anymore or whatever. Like, do you replace it, or is it just cheaper to put a light in there?

And so, things of that nature gets into just building a good relationship with your owner, and you should have a good feel on, what's gonna be a maintenance request that somebody really cares about, or are they just bringing it up, 'cause it's broken, and, you know, you need to talk about it.

Speaker 2 [22:56] So, I looked, we don't have a question about this. So we talked about vetting tenants, but if you're vetting property management firms, would you say then that, like, tell me how maintenance requests go, show me, like you say, that's a big one?

Rodrigo Afanador [23:06] Yeah, I think it would be good to know what the maintenance process is for whoever is going to be managing your properties and having, you know, having confidence in their approach to it. Very nice.

Speaker 2 [23:16] All right, so closing the loop. You've edited them. They've lived here, you've done maintenance for them. Now they're moving out. Right? So what's the system for moveout that protects you from disputes and helps get the unit turned fast?

Rodrigo Afanador [23:27] So when we know move out's coming up, what we do is about two weeks, three weeks ahead of time, our maintenance technician will go through the property and kind of just do a really quick walkthrough, this is not a move out or anything like that, it's just a gut feel, to see if there's any conversations that we want to kind of set the stage four ahead of time. So if we know a tenant has lived in the house really bad, and there's a lot of damages that are gonna be coming up, that walkthrough allows the maintenance tech to kind of just plant some seeds with the tenant, like, Oh, wow, looks like we're gonna have to replace all the flooring in here.

Or whatever the case might be, and those are real things, but it helps kind of get that expectation that there is work that's gonna happen. I think a lot of people that we work with when they move out, think that all the damages are normal wear and tear, and that's definitely not the case. So that move out process for us is that two stage is, you know, do that quick walkthrough with our maintenance stack. Then the day of move out, when we get the keys, we'll have them do another just more intentional, move out process, where they do document everything. They do look at everything, find newth and comb. Is that the saying? I forgot it. But take pictures, document everything.

And then, at that point, there's gonna be typically consensus between us and the tenant on what the damages are, if any, that are gonna be coming out of a security deposit. We typically don't have any disputes. It's very rare for us to have a dispute over a security deposit because of that.

Carla Barnard [24:49] We have similar processes, and we always advise our clients to start early and go and look at the premises and see if there are certain things that we think the tenant's not going to manage to remove, like massive brewery equipment or whatever contaminative thing they've done. Our landlord clients are somewhat protected more than residential in that there is no timeline for how long we can hold on to a security deposit. So, if a tenant would like their deposit back then, they will have to play ball.

Speaker 2 [25:22] So just kind of follow up on that. So, in real estate, or residential, rather, it's, like, generally one month's rent, which doesn't really cover a lot of, it doesn't cover any serious damages, but it's not all that hot. What does that number look like in commercial?

Carla Barnard [25:36] Uh, it's the same. We have some onlert you'll try to get, um, a little bit extra, but usually it's the equivalent of one month's base rent. So we run in the same issue. Okay.

Michael Outar [25:47] Yeah, I don't have too much more to add to that. That's pretty covers pretty much everything.

Speaker 3 [25:51] No that makes sense. So on the, so I've never had a problem with the lease, because I've gotten really lucky there, I've also gotten really lucky that I've never had that tenant come and get so upset with me, did they say, I'm going to talk to my attorney about this or they're threatening the, I'm going to get my lawyer sicked on you. How do you, you know, let's, I'm going to make it a two-parter. One, how do you avoid that conversation ever happening in the 1st place? And number two, if you do get that question, you know, how do you, like, what do you do? How do you manage that? How do you, you know, diffuse that or address it? Michael?

Michael Outar [26:29] Uh, depends on what kind of mood I'm in. No, but seriously, if the person that you've been dealing with, you've had a relationship with them probably for at least a year, right? So you know kind of a little bit, are they paying on time or have they've given you issues in the past? So you kind of give a grace where grace is due, and then sometimes you have to be rough where you have to be rough. And so normally it doesn't get to that point, but if it does, you kind of just fight fire with fire and just say, okay, you know, let's go. If you feel like your lease is strong and you've done the best to maintain that property and little living conditions are good and all those things.

Carla Barnard [27:08] My answer is always, please do. I can't wait to have that conversation.

Speaker 3 [27:14] Is it really? I mean, so have you had it before?

Carla Barnard [27:18] Um, we have not, but we've had clients have gone close to the line. And, yeah, I'd be very happy. I can have a more reasonable, informed and emotionally detached conversation with an attorney, where we both know what the playing field actually looks like, and we can make it go away, typically.

Speaker 2 [27:39] For those listening and can't see, Rodrigo is shaking his head emphatically, right?

Speaker 3 [27:43] So, Rodrigo, why are you shaking your head emphatically?

Rodrigo Afanador [27:46] Well, one thing is, like, I don't think that that's a conversation you want to, like, you don't want to manage scared, right? Like, having an attorney get involved? is typically not a bad thing because of everything that Carla is shared. It's because they, most of the time that those conversations come up or that that threat comes up, If somebody's just feeling frustrated. If there's a serious issue with an attorney, my Gus is, you're gonna hear from the attorney before you hear about it from the tenant.

And so, if it's a lot of, like, saber rattling, and our response is, like, Hey, like, really sorry you feel that way, like, here's our contact information, just have your attorney reach out to us, and we're happy to talk to them and do whatever we can to, you know, answer their questions or whatnot. And very rarely do we ever have attorneys contact us. They're expensive.

Speaker 2 [28:32] Like, a contract is only as good as it is enforceable, and if it costs you more to sue someone, then you hope to get back. So, uh, all right, so, Michael, we'll start with you, because you had mentioned this, we're at this part of the show here, especially given, so when we sent out the first email, we actually had one of the highest response rates of RSVPs right off the bat. That was a month ago. It's since petered off. And the market is doing the same, right? So as we talked about supply and demand, it's a little bit different.

So, Michael, the question was, what's your strategy for making sure your property stays rented, and then to your key point that you brought up without lowering your standards, which longer term, could hurt more. Do you have an answer that this is the answer everyone wants? This is the good one. I don't know.

Michael Outar [29:14] I mean, my my rentals, the majority of them are in Swananoa. So I got hit hard. I'm asking myself that question, honestly, every day. is where's the point where I lower the rent so much to where I'm just attracting everybody and anybody, and would know I stick to my guns. I don't really have a good answer for that, honestly. It's a, you just gotta go with what your, your debt's really telling you, you know? At the end of the day, can you pay your mortgage or your debt?

Speaker 2 [29:40] So if you don't mind. So is there, and you don't have to, like, tell me this number, but is there a number where you're like, All right, so long as I'm not losing more than this, I'd rather lose that than the whole amount, 'cause there is a math equation where if you lower it 100 bucks, that's $1,200 a month, or a year, excuse me. And there's no coming back. So, do you have that, or you're like, I'm so much more concerned with the quality of the tenant than I'm willing to eat those costs?

Michael Outar [30:03] No, it's changed. I used to worry about the quality of the tenant. Now I'm just worried about paying the bills, basically. So, yeah, you have to use that math equation and figure out how much longer do I want to hold off?

Speaker 2 [30:14] My property manager is telling me about this equation.

Michael Outar [30:16] Frequently. He's selling himself really good right now.

Carla Barnard [30:22] We've had massive rent increases and a lot of demand on our market for more than 10 years. And, um, the advice that I try to sort of impart upon my landlord clients is you are usually best served by trying to work with a client that you have, even if they are slightly below market. Like, um, I don't, I think there's too much focus, especially, um, amongst commercial brokers on what the current market rate is, and not on following vacancy and absorption.

So my advice is usually, can you take your tenant from where they are today to where you'd want to be, but over a longer period of time, most businesses will work with you on that, um, versus trying to jump in at really high, um, increases, but again, to your point, debt, load, and, you know, new property owners coming at a higher price point, do not always have that luxury. Yep.

Rodrigo Afanador [31:25] So, lowering your price always gonna give you a larger pool, and so, in theory, you're gonna be able to find better quality tenants, but if you do that, it's also gonna require a much larger human effort to sift through the volume of leads that you'll get. And so it's always that balance, and you want to have kind of a high threshold for people to jump through, to justify the fact that they're, you know, reasonable tenant. Like, before we show people a property, we have a couple of pre screening questions that we ask.

And, like, if you can't answer three questions online, like, that doesn't give us a lot of confidence that you're gonna be somebody who's gonna be, like, good to work with, and so doing some things like that help, um, and as far as finding a good tenant versus price, I think part of that is always reminding, like, myself as a landlord, but also with people that we work with is, like, what decision, or what timeline are you making this decision on? If you're planning to own this property for five years, and you're gonna rent it for five years, that's gonna give you a little bit of a different perspective on how low you're gonna be willing to go? Like, in January, we talked, I share.

I think 2025 is not gonna be a great year for cash flow, and if you can get a good tenant in there and wait until 2026, then as the market's changed, you can make new decisions about increasing prices, and if you have a long term outlook, then lowering prices to get a good person in there and dealing with the volume of tenants might be worth it, to just kick the can down the road and be like, Okay, we'll worry about cash flow next year, this year is just about staying in the game.

Speaker 3 [32:55] Very real. So, in every sense of the word, I'm a softie. I, uh, and especially when it comes to landlording, I let people break leases all the time when I shouldn't, I, I, I kind of get walked on a little bit, um, which maybe it benefits me in the long run, but who knows, but, you know, if that's not how one it to be, you know, when you're landlording, how do you stay fair, but not get walked on at the same time, Rodrigo?

Rodrigo Afanador [33:22] So, I do think that being a parent has helped me better do this thought process, because I feel like a lot of the conversations are similar. It's, like, there are very clear rules and agreements that we have in place, and life happens, and at the end of the day, it's, like, you can't forget the humanity over the contract, but the contract's always really good and important to have in place, because sometimes it's not life happening, and it's somebody just trying to take advantage of a situation. And I think that knowing who your tenants are in the pre screening process.

Like, we typically know who our problem tenants are gonna be before we put them in a property, and that's part of life, because sometimes they surprise you, and they end up being great tenants, and vice versa. So there's always this risk profile that you take. So, to answer your question is, it's knowing who they are, and, like I said earlier, like, communication solves all things, typically in intendant landlord relationships. And so it's, did you ask the right questions to trust the story that you're getting told?

Carla Barnard [34:22] I would echo that. I would also say that remaining emotionally detached. is helpful. You can be a little bit more fair when you're less invested in it, and, um, you know, we lean to a lot on the written record. Like, we make an effort to explain to people on the way in, and when issues come up, like, how they're gonna be dealt with, and what the lease says, and we're gonna come back to that, when there's a problem. But I do also think there is merit to the idea that if somebody really wants to be out, Sometimes it's easier to just let them be out of it. Like, just the same as if you're, you know, there are plenty of brokers in the room.

If you've got a client, you want to work with people who want to work with you, and sometimes it's not worth the grind to push through something that's clearly not working for one or other if you...

Michael Outar [35:12] Yeah, I'd say the same thing. Every situation's gonna be a little more unique depending on the property, the tenant, so you just gotta take it as it comes, but sometimes it's better to just say, yeah, I'll give you what you want, just get out, you know, in a certain way. And you're not being soft, you're being smart, because there's more headache.

Speaker 2 [35:31] I was gonna say, if everyone's seen the Bronx tale, right? The guy doesn't give him 20 bucks. He's like, man, you got rid of a problem for 20 bucks. That guy never wants to see you again.

Michael Outar [35:37] And again, I will say that's one plus of a property manager. Because if you do have that personality and that tendency, It's not worth the 150 bucks you're gonna save a month, you know, in the long run. Let them handle it.

Speaker 2 [35:49] All right, last question. Bring it home. How? And we'll start with you, Michael. How has being a landlord changed you as a person?

Michael Outar [35:59] Um, I've got a lot better at multitasking. I can do a lot of things at one time that I never was able to do before. And I think I've gotten better with people. and just being able to communicate. Yeah, I feel better there.

Unknown [36:19] More cynical. Man. Gray hair.

Speaker 3 [36:23] That's my real answer. It's true. So what has made you more cynical?

Carla Barnard [36:27] Um, I think. What's the story? Yeah. Dealing with a lot of people at a lot of different stages in their lives, trying people who are trying to do lots of different types of businesses and, you know, we have being very involved in this market through some major things, including COVID and Helene, which just feels like COVID 2.0 for as far as landlord tenant relations are concerned. And, you know, we can't learn a lot of lessons and come out without a few extra gray hairs. It's real.

Rodrigo Afanador [37:04] Definitely the gray hairs. That's, uh, definitely a true thing. I think the biggest thing that I've learned, or that I've learned through that process, is, like, learning urgency is very relative. I think that anytime you hear something from an owner, or from a landlord, for them, it's always the most important thing, and just learning how to prioritize urgency, and not take somebody else's urgency on as your own, has been helpful skills. Call it compartmentalization, if you will.

Speaker 2 [37:29] I learned a fun analogy to this, it's about management or leadership, and it's like, people will come in with their monkey. And it's your job that they leave with their monkey, that you don't keep it and take it on, so that's great. So we're gonna go into the lightning round, and this panel's been so great about answering. I won't even, like, harp on that. It's lightning, okay? Answer quickly. So, if someone wanted to start tomorrow, what is the first move they should make? Michael?

Unknown [37:54] Get money.

Michael Outar [37:56] Hey. You need money. I mean, I'm a big bank person. I deal a lot with banks. So I just, that's all I did when I first started, was call around, introduce myself, and just figure out how to get that capital any way you can. Or owner financing. if you can do that.

Carla Barnard [38:15] Do not buy a commercial property as your first investment. Please try out a single family rental or a duplex first.

Rodrigo Afanador [38:27] Yeah, I mean, what Crom said, or sorry, what Michael said is good, but I think the 2nd piece of that is, if you don't own something, then you just gotta start making offers as fast as possible with, you know, with some guidance. There's a lot of good brokers that can help you with that.

Speaker 3 [38:40] All right, next one. What is one, just one maintenance item or upgrade that every rental should have?

Rodrigo Afanador [38:48] I'm a big believer in ventilation fans that go on in bathrooms when the lights go on.

Carla Barnard [38:54] Echo that plus HVAC maintenance contract.

Michael Outar [38:58] Yeah, toilet flappers. Specially if you have a septic tank.

Speaker 2 [39:03] All right, hold on. A little less lightning. What is a toilet flapper? Well, you know, like... What holds the wall? Okay, okay, okay, yeah.

Michael Outar [39:11] So, yeah, if you have a septic tank, that could be a killer for a second. So it's worth a 3 or 4 bucks to replace them. Yeah. Oh, oh, and your drier vent. Please. Oh, that out. All right, what are those?

Speaker 2 [39:24] All right, all right, you're not coming back. All right. All right. So on money and hustling, the hustle muscle. What is the best way to find a deal that could turn into a rental right now, as we saw, market price? Maybe not, maybe not the way. The MLS is probably not it. What would you say is the best way? Sell yourself.

Michael Outar [39:43] No, I don't know. I don't know. I really don't. I mean, just, I guess, pound the pavement. They always say that. right? Just knock on doors, look for properties with long grass. I don't really know. in this market how you do it.

Carla Barnard [39:53] Um, I would say hospitality is slightly in the toilet with or without a flapper. And so you're gonna see lots of Airbnbs, boutique hotels, bed and breakfast, boomers like them, young people don't. And somebody's gonna have to figure out what to do with those, and it would seem in an area that's characterized by a lack of housing, supply of all types and affordable housing, that maybe some of you guys could do something with those. Beautiful.

Rodrigo Afanador [40:26] The deal junkie himself. I would, I would, I think the focus is what Michael says, like, have as many conversations as possible. There's gonna be creative options, whether it's owner financing or something else that's gonna give you the opportunity to make sure that the numbers work, that's gonna be a lot more effort on the front end than maybe ever before.

Speaker 2 [40:45] Where there's a will, there's a way. All right. If we can get a round of applause for our speakers.

Rodrigo Afanador [40:56] Hey, guys, Rodrigo here wanted to say thank you for taking the time to listen into this month's panel conversation. We hope that you join us in person at next month's meeting. You can find out more at AVLmeetup.com. We primarily meet on the 1st Tuesday of every month, but be sure to check out our website, AVLmeetup.com. You can also watch this conversation on YouTube at AVLmeetup. Also, I have a quick announcement. We started a property management company called Vesta Property management. So if you're looking for 3rd party management for long-term rental, we'd love the opportunity to talk to you. Our goal at Vesta is to turn houses into homes and investments into returns.

If you're looking to work with a third-party management company, that will allow you to have peace of mind and experience freedom around rentals. Reach out to us. can help make that happen for you. That's the PM.com. What's going on, everyone?

Speaker 2 [41:53] Zach here to close it out before you sign off for the day. If you liked the data driven portion of today's meetup, then I'd love to take a moment to tell you about the Ruiz Report and REMC.co. If you're a real estate professional, then you know that you should become the local economist of choice, but you're probably unsure of how to learn the skills required. That's where the Ruiz Report comes in. We offer customized marker reports to promote your business, training videos so you learn how to interpret the market data, and monthly quizzes to keep you sharp. Learn more at resreport.com and sign up for a free account to watch all of our training videos at no cost.

If you're more interested in the live data and some data and analytics dashboards than I highly suggest you check out ramc.co. REMC.co is the 1st of its kind, data and analytics dashboards for the real estate industry. Now you have to be an active participating member of the MLS in order to sign up, but it is unparalleled data on every market participant, whether that's an office, a listing, or one of the realtors. Again, you can find out more about REMC.co at REMC.co. As always, thanks for listening, and we hope to see you at one of our next meetups.

If you can't make it and you still want to be part of the movers and shakers, then sign up for a free account at AVLmeetup.com and get yourself into our member directory. Thanks again. See you next month.